To tape or not to tape - Newbie question

Hi everyone,

First a (quite long) introduction to my doubt. Jump to the next bold letters if you wish:

Since a few months ago, I've started shaving with a straight razor... the hard way! I've got a SR from my grandpa (he passed away in 1982), and though it was quite rusty I've put it to use.

My "rough" stone is a grit #500ish, and my "fine" one is a natural, with unknown grit rating. When sharpening knives, it takes a lifetime to get rid of the #500's scratches on the natural stone, so it must be in the #2000-#4000 range. When you look at the edge with your naked eye, it looks shiny, but with an inverted 6mm TV lens (roughly a 150X magnification) you see the scratches quite clearly. It takes quite a while to place things (razor, your nose, the light, the "loupe") in order to be able to see something actually. This setup focuses when almost touching the surface. Green CROX paste on leather, and white "fine" paste on leather and it even looks shiny with a strong loupe.

Here it goes:
I have been browsing some tutorials and the libraries (a lot more yet to be checked) and have seen quite some different opinions on the electrical tape issue. No tape, one layer of tape, three layers of tape, and so on. But this is mainly focused on the final bevel angle. I don't know why but I've decided on the "no tape" variation. Though I've intentionally pressed more on the edge than on the spine, the latter one got scratched too. Does this happen to everyone? Any ways the "no-tape" fanatics avoid this?

Where I live (Buenos Aires - Argentina) it is not easy to get mentoring (I've read on this forum that in-person mentoring is a lot easier than youtube videos), and also the high grit stones (4000-8000-12000); so kindly don't suggest any of them as a solution ;-)

TIA

Martin

I generally use one layer of tape. First it eliminates any further spine wear on an old razor or new wear on a new razor. Depending on the age of the blade and wear I may use two layers of tape. If there is gold wash on the spine I immediately use tape.

When I started out I really struggled until I started using 1 layer of tape, personally I found the tape really helped me especially with being consistent.

I use tape on every razor I hone. 3 of the best hone masters I know use tape. I learned from them. Now i'm not saying i'm as in there class but I get a decent shave off my edges and don't scratch my blade. I start out with 1K then the 3k next the 8k then 12k and I finish up with the 20K. I will at a later date add the 5K to the sys. all are the naniwa supper stone the 20 I cant spell. I guess what i'm saying is tape or no tape it's really up to you. Some blades maybe warn enough to use tape to get the bevel as you need it. I have one that I use 2 layers of tape for that reason. there are several videos on utube to watch that may help. Good luck.

First off, when you see references to more than one layer of tape we are talking about something different than honing.
We use that, as needed, to correct various geometrical issues on razors with specific challenges such as uneven hone wear and wahtnot.

Now, as for the whole tape or no tape debate, here's my take on it.
Both methods will both work just fine.

Some will use it to elliminate hone wear on the spine.
This can be useful when you have say gold wash on the spine or other stuff like filework and so on.

The whole argument about chage in angle due to the layer of tape, even when talking about honing the razor for decades is in my humble opinion a load of ballony.

So, again, either will work just fine.
It's all a matter of preference.

There are as many opinions on this as their are stew recipes I would imagine but, I have been told the tape makes very little difference to angle to worry about as it is more for keeping spine wear down,especially if your honing someone else's blade.

The issue is pretty easy and boils down to no tape = hone wear to the spine and a layer of tape = no hone wear to the spine. Take your pick. One layer of tape changes the bevel angle by about 1 degree from what I read. If the optimum bevel angle is 17 degrees you can easily go + or - 2 degrees either way and still be OK, again from what I read. The whole thing is mainly a tempest in a tea pot if it concerns razors in good condition imho.

If you are going to hone without tape I would not be using a 500 grit stone to set the bevel with to avoid excess hone wear to the spine. On a razor with no chips or corrosion on the bevel but otherwise in good shape I would set the bevel using a 3/4K hone. That alone would save a great deal of hone wear to the spine if not using tape.

Yes, I use tape on the spine as I see no reason not to.

Bob

The 500 grit stone is not for use on razors, it is way too course.

I recommend all new honers to use tape, because you will use too much pressure and grind off way too much steel off the spine, then you will have geometry issues.

There is no benefit to not using tape, certainly no downside. If you continue to use tape and the 500 grit stone, you will ruin you razor.

Use just your fine stone, it may take you longer, but you will do less damage and you may be surprised at how aggressive it may be.

Do get yourself some magnification in the 20-60x range, but anything is better than nothing.

With magnification look at the bevel and edge to see when the bevels come together and meet at the edge, then use the Chrome Oxide to strop a comfortable shaving edge. Maintain with linen and leather.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the fast and friendly feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightblade

There are as many opinions on this as their are stew recipes I would imagine but, I have been told the tape makes very little difference to angle to worry about as it is more for keeping spine wear down,especially if your honing someone else's blade.

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1 layer of tape #1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Birnando

First off, when you see references to more than one layer of tape we are talking about something different than honing.
We use that, as needed, to correct various geometrical issues on razors with specific challenges such as uneven hone wear and wahtnot.

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Thanks for this input. It looks like this is not what I am looking for right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Birnando

Now, as for the whole tape or no tape debate, here's my take on it.
Both methods will both work just fine.

Some will use it to elliminate hone wear on the spine.

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1 layer of tape #2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Birnando

This can be useful when you have say gold wash on the spine or other stuff like filework and so on.

The whole argument about chage in angle due to the layer of tape, even when talking about honing the razor for decades is in my humble opinion a load of ballony.

So, again, either will work just fine.
It's all a matter of preference.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rhensley

I use tape on every razor I hone. 3 of the best hone masters I know use tape. I learned from them. Now i'm not saying i'm as in there class but I get a decent shave off my edges and don't scratch my blade. I start out with 1K then the 3k next the 8k then 12k and I finish up with the 20K. I will at a later date add the 5K to the sys. all are the naniwa supper stone the 20 I cant spell. I guess what i'm saying is tape or no tape it's really up to you. Some blades maybe warn enough to use tape to get the bevel as you need it. I have one that I use 2 layers of tape for that reason. there are several videos on utube to watch that may help. Good luck.

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1 layer of tape #3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monkeypuzzlebeefeater

When I started out I really struggled until I started using 1 layer of tape, personally I found the tape really helped me especially with being consistent.

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1 layer of tape #4

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bouschie

I generally use one layer of tape. First it eliminates any further spine wear on an old razor or new wear on a new razor. Depending on the age of the blade and wear I may use two layers of tape. If there is gold wash on the spine I immediately use tape.

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1 layer of tape #5

Summary: From now on it will be 1 layer of tape. 5 helpful guys told me so, and no one adviced me on how to avoid spine wear without the tape. I am struggling to get a 4000/8000 stone, and might be getting a finer one later on (actually trying to trade them for some vintage fountain pens I own). But this will take time, as they are not available where I live.

Rgds

Martin

What Birnando said: "a load of ballony"

Ephemeral: the feeling of all steel on a hone. There are exceptions where I think tape is necessary which others have said.
Non-ephemeral: It now feels like it takes me forever to center the tape on the spine because I am a fanatic for symmetry.
Good Luck

Incredibly, and totally unexpectedly, a seller in mercadolibre (our e-bay associated site) showed up with a combo of two-sided stones: 1000/4000 & 4000/8000. I didn't give it a second thought ;-)

Still not decided to go further in the grit size, towards 12000-20000 range as I have seen in this forum; I might stay with the Nortons and stropping pastes for a while and see what happens.

Rgds

Martin

You also may want to look at Barber Hones, a 2 sided hone can be very similar in performance to a modern 4/8k synthetic stone.

I would begin my search at local barber shops, you might be pleasantly surprised at what else you fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

You also may want to look at Barber Hones, a 2 sided hone can be very similar in performance to a modern 4/8k synthetic stone.

I would begin my search at local barber shops, you might be pleasantly surprised at what else you fine.

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Thanks, Euclid. I would rather wait for my set of Nortons, if they are supposed to be of "similar performance" (quite anxious about them, BTW). Local barbers, AFAIK, don't use the straight razors anymore for safety reasons (AIDS and such, I guess). I don't know how many of them know how to give you a nice straight razor shave, but some of them used to use straight razors to finish the back of your neck, for example.

They currently use a kind of holder, where they place half a disposable sheet (http://mlm-s2-p.mlstatic.com/navajas...3_082013-F.jpg), and they actually show you when they cut the sheet in half inside the waxed paper envelope, in order to ensure it is brand new.

One of the local shops for barber materials (clippers, foams, scissors, shears, brushes, you name it), which was actually one of the most important ones ("Casa Montagnac"), became smaller and smaller over time, and kept only their sharpening shop "alive", but ended up closing down recently.

Rgds.

Just in my experience ....... I began honing using one layer of electrical tape for fear of damaging the spine due to my ineptitude. After I had honed many razors over the course of a year, I began honing some without tape. I found that I liked honing sans tape but ........ I went back to using tape because with some razors it became a cosmetic issue.

I just didn't like any wear on the spine at all, even minimal wear. Add to that the problem of honing some with, some without tape, becomes remembering which is which. When it comes time for a touch up it is nice to know whether tape was used in the initial honing or not. So my default method became one layer of tape on all razors. Rare exceptions may call for more than one layer, but those special cases are few and far between, because I'm selective about the condition of the razors I buy to begin with.

My two cents ....... :gl:

It is much the same here, which is why if you find some of the old barbers they still have a lot of their old gear, Stones, Razors and Strops that they would probably love to see someone appreciate and use… not to mention literally a lifetime of knowledge.

Even if you can’t fine old barbers, newer barbers can point you in right direction, they know who and where the old guys are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

It is much the same here, which is why if you find some of the old barbers they still have a lot of their old gear, Stones, Razors and Strops that they would probably love to see someone appreciate and use… not to mention literally a lifetime of knowledge.

Even if you can’t fine old barbers, newer barbers can point you in right direction, they know who and where the old guys are.

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I will. I used to visit barbers every month or so... years ago. Now I only visit one when my son needs a haircut and my wife is too busy to go during weekdays. I kind of got rid of haircuts... :-(

Next time I go with my son I will ask him. This guy is about 60 YO and the shop was his father's. He works there since he was a teenager, so there must be something old fashioned to look for.

G'day folks,

A month or so ago, I bought a razor from an antique store near where I live. It had a note with it saying it was honed with one layer of tape. I am a confirmed 'No tape' guy. Now when I want to refresh/hone this razor, I want to hone it 'no tape' My question is, is it a big job to convert the angle of the primary edge? Am I looking at going right back and reset the bevel on 1K and go through the whole progression? Or can I just follow a touch up routine, going back a hone in the routine and finish as normal?

Your advice?

1 layer of tape is meaningless, or about 20 laps to drop to bare steel :p
It varies with the stone of course but it is PDQ

People make a huge deal of nothing..

There is a vid on my channel you can watch by searching "gssixgun honing Tape vs No tape" and watch it happen

Thanks Glen,
I'm no mathematician, so thanks for the advice. I thought I'd watched all ur srp, vids, I'll have another look.


Cheers Bob

Mate I just watched the video in question.

So I can now, when I buy a taped edge razor, forget it. that makes me happy

You get a red rag and go for it, but I am now happily, relaxed with razors that have been taped

thanks glen , bob

1 layer of tape hehehe

Now when people use more layers to compensate for any geometry issues of the razor then that changes things, but hell honing geometry challenged razors change things anyway :p

I don't hone for hire so never use tape, even for "problem" razors. Just use the spine as a guide; don't apply more pressure on the spine than is required to keep it in contact with the hone. (Actually touching the hone with the spine isn't always necessary or even advisable.)

Call it as you see it mate. I always reserve my position. and make a final choice based on facts. And like you, don't hone for cash.

Regards

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

1 layer of tape is meaningless, or about 20 laps to drop to bare steel :p
It varies with the stone of course but it is PDQ

People make a huge deal of nothing..

There is a vid on my channel you can watch by searching "gssixgun honing Tape vs No tape" and watch it happen

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I saw Glen do this in person at the Denver Meet with a 5k stone. Very enlightening.